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Crossbearer's Blog
Thu, Mar 13 2008


Rapture! Is it pre-tribulation or Post-tribulation?


remote Posted by crossbearer-brian at 3:35 PM EDT
Updated: Thu, Mar 13 2008 3:56 PM EDT
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Thu, Mar 13 2008 - 3:44 PM EDT

Name: "crossbearer-brian"
Home Page: http://members.tripod.com/crossbearer-brian/id59.htm

Begin Discussion

Wed, Jul 9 2008 - 2:45 PM EDT

Name: "Patti Sliman"
Home Page: http://www.abiblestudy.com

The post-trib, pre-wrath, rapture view is the only view taught in Scripture... and by all of the early church fathers.

Tue, Sep 2 2008 - 8:36 PM EDT

Name: "jonathan"
Home Page: http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com/

I have some research about Mecca here (this is NOT spam).  I hope you get a chance to see it.  it is VERY serious, this is not spam.  Mecca could be the woman that rides the scarlet beast, and the Mystery Babylon the great might be uncovered in the research too.  it is all speculation, i am not trying to say this is it or anything, but please add to your knowledge so that you are aware:
http://meccasevenmountains.blogspot.com/
P.S.  also included in the research is an account of why the pre-tribulation rapture cannot be true, I am sure there are things you can use in it.

Mon, Oct 20 2008 - 9:33 PM EDT

Name: "Jason"

Hey, Brian, I just discovered your great site - praise the Lord! I, too, am posttrib and am finding many who have abandoned the pretrib view for posttrib or prewrath. Am wondering if you have seen posttrib historian Dave MacPherson's writings. Some of his articles on Google that I appreciate a lot are "Famous Rapture Watchers," "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," "Pretrib Rapture Desperados," "X-Raying Margaret," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)," "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham," and "Scholars Weigh My Research" (endorsements of his research from many well-known evangelical scholars). I also appreciate your needed discussion of homosexuality. BTW, I recently spotted the following article on Google: "Obama Supports Public Depravity." (This perversion has been happening on public streets in front of little kids in HOUSE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI'S DISTRICT!!! And the mayor there told cops not to arrest "gays" who were doing these filthy, illegal things - things that Obama has publicly said HE APPROVES OF!!!) Someone said that Obama, Pelosi etc. don't want folks to know what goes on at those "gay" festivals in front of children because it could ignite and unite the Religious Right like nothing else - which explains why not a word was said about "gay" rights at any of the Presidential debates! I don't know where America is heading, but true Christians everywhere should pray that the Lord's choices will be realized on Election Day! Lord bless you, Brian. You are greatly needed!          Jason

Wed, Nov 12 2008 - 1:50 PM EST

Name: "Nada Hope King"

Hello, brother Brian,

 I just  watched your  video  on  the teachings on rapture. My husband and I used to believe the way most of the churches do, but God has  shown us through the  study of His word that this doctrine is false. We  are aware that  most of the people in the Church   hold to  their position to the point of  hostility  and breaking of the fellowship  with those who   don't hold their view. It  is  a lonely  feeling.  Thank you for  sharing your video, and please don't stop telling the truth. People need to know, and some  are listening. We feel  satan is pushing his deception about  the rapture before tribulation, because it is in his interest for God's people to  be lilabied, and so be caught unaware.

Blessings  and grace of God be with you.

Nada

Wed, Nov 26 2008 - 3:01 AM EST

Name: stephen27417
Home Page: http://www.jesuslovers.net

I very much was blessed by your comments on the Rapture. Many years ago (around 1975 or so) I first became interested in Bible Prophecy after reading Hal Lindsey's book (THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH). Not understanding God's Truth myself I simply took him at his word and for many years believed what he taught. This is a mistake made by many Christians today. That is to take anyone and everyone's word because they claim to be teaching the Truth. Thank God that he saw fit to show us the real Truth as taught in his Word. We are now caretakers for His website and there are many great Bible studies there. Hope you visit us if you find time and just wanted to encourage you to never stop seeking God's Truth, not man's truth so called. We have an excellent teaching titled 'THE RAPTURE - THE RESURRECTION'. I will try to post link here but not sure if that's possible or not. If not you will find this study under Navagation bar titled "WISDOM FROM ABOVE" God bless and keep you safe during the dark days ahead. Jack for JesusLovers.net

http://www.jesuslovers.net/id102.html

Thu, Nov 27 2008 - 4:50 AM EST

Name: "Jack Howell"
Home Page: http://jesuslovers.net

Thanks Brian for your great video on the Great Tribulation. You probably did the best job explaining the Pos-trib rapture I've ever heard. God has given us a teaching article titled "The Rapture-The Resurrection". Should you be interested you can find this teaching on web site <jesuslovers.net> in the navigation link called "Wisdom from above"/ It is so refreshing to find someone who teaches the Truth in Love as you did on your video. God bless you as you continue to seek God's Truth as he has written it and not as men wish he had. The simple truth is most deceptions are so welcomed by so many Christians is that they start out with what they 'WANT' to believe (that which the flesh desires) and then search the scriptures until they can make their case. Or should I say, until they think they have. Keep up the great work you have began. Jack Howell

Thu, Feb 26 2009 - 5:00 PM EST

Name: "Sandy Lycett"

Thank you so much for all the information you have provided. I haven't believed in the rapture for 10 years, because I also did my own study, and came up with all the scripture you did, to prove the rapture wrong.

 Where the pre-trib's say that the church is not mentioned again after Rev. 4 they are wrong. It's in the last chapter of Rev. 22:16.

It reads:

I Jesus have sent my angel to testify unto you these things in the

churches .... Please read verses 17,18, 19, and 20.

Thank you Sandy Lycett. God Bless

Sun, Mar 8 2009 - 10:14 PM EDT

Name: "Kermit Zarley"
Home Page: http://crossbearer

Hi Brian,

I just read most of your article on posttrib vs. pretrib. Good work, brother.

I am a former pretribber and changed to postrib in 1971. I am writing a series of books on eschatology entitled Still Here as "an alternative to Left Behind theology." See my website stillherebooks.com. Book 2, Warrior from Heaven, is on the second coming. Pub date is 6/1/09. 35 years in the making.

 Kermit Zarley

Sat, Apr 4 2009 - 8:28 PM EDT

Name: "Nic"

hey, i have heard this idea of post-trib for quite a while and i cannot agree with it. like you said, there's no reason to for us to be divided as a church because we disagree on one issue. but as far as your reference to matthew 24:29 and mark 13:24 i believe Jesus is talking about the end times as a whole. not just the 7 years of tribulation. in scripture you have to read the verses before and after to really get an understanding of the real intent and context. and in the verses before it he is speaking about signs of the end times like famines and earthquakes. and i believe we have already seen signs of the end times with things like Israel becoming a nation. and in verses 22 Jesus clearly says, "And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short." the "elect" or the church's time will be cut short. and if Jesus is talking about the end times as a whole and not just the 7 years of tribulation, wouldn't it make sense for our time to be cut short from the tribulation?

 

and in revelation 3:10 it says, "Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth."

 in that it says i will keep you from the hour of the trial that is coming on the whole world. if God had intended for us to be here during the tribulation. why would he have said i will keep you from the "hour" or time period, and the "trial" or testing times all together? 

Wed, May 20 2009 - 1:04 PM EDT

Name: "Burt Bellows"

Hi Brian, 

There isn't any question the rapture is actually the 1st resurrection of the just, occurring at the last trump. I've called it 'pre-wrath' for years, but lately I've been surprised to see it may be post-trib and after the wrath (which is the 'day of the Lord', I believe the last day-year of the tribulation period).

I don't know of course, and in a manner of speaking it doesn't matter. The angels are told not to hurt those marked with his mark, so the question is one of interest for now. It does seem God reveals things more the closer we get to a certain time, so it may become very important...

 At any rate, by all means I'm interested in discussing whether the trib is 7 years, mostly because it's never crossed my mind it could be anything else. I like to be a good Berean.

 So, blessings man, and though you know this, doctrinal things like this are a joy to speak about rather than a matter of dissension and pride, so you may speak freely without concern that I'll get upset or nasty on you. 

Burt

Wed, May 20 2009 - 2:51 PM EDT

Name: "Rae"

Hi, I live in Northern Ireland and as far as I know am one of a very small number of people who believe in a postribulational rapture, infact, I have not yet personaly met anyone in N.I who has the same view as me.

I cant discuss it with anyone as they don't like it at all. I love them and they are great Christians in many way's, but I cannot talk about a post trib rapture with anyone.

I BELIEVE IN A POST TRIB RAPTURE!

It's nice to get it off my chest, lol.

Sun, Jun 21 2009 - 10:35 PM EDT

Name: "cop4christ96"

I always believed it would be pre trib. But that was because i was trysting what man told me instead of seeking the truth in the Word for myself. When i began years ago to study to show myself approved unto God... I found that the scriptures told of a post trib return of Christ, overwhelmingly!  I then had to seek out the truth on everything i had been taught and did away with most of it...once saved always saved, traditions of men, ect.

Fri, Jun 26 2009 - 3:16 PM EDT

Name: "Chris"

You have some very interesting points in the debate.  Some I personally agree with and some I do not.  I can only speak for myself and my walk with Christ.

I believe that the Bible is a truly wonderful tool.  But it is a TOOL nonetheless.  As they say it's not "the gospel" so to speak.  It is always so interesting hearing those from the "different sides" and their interpretations...my most favorite being those who take the Bible as THE word of God.  Word for word.  No room for interpretation...unforgiving "that's just the way it is".  While I have no doubt whatsoever that many parts in the bible are quite possibly the word of God, I find it very difficult to believe that God would ever contradict Himself.  After all, if the Bible is the word of God, and God is perfect (which I have yet to hear a negative on), then it should have no contridictions whatsoever.  It should be THE true picture of perfection if that were the case.  Ultimately as we all know, it was written by people who said that God had spoken to them.  As we all know, human beings are imperfect by nature and are sinners from birth.  So I believe that what it could very well be is that the Bible IS the word of God...as interpreted by man.  It's that "as interpreted by man" part that is so important to me. 

I believe that the most important thing when dealing with Christ is the PERSONAL relationship that one has with Him.  We all know that is what He desires most from us all.  The bible is wonderful as a tool, but I believe that those who only go to the Bible for the answers may not necessarily talking to the right source.   This is not a personal attack on anyone...it is simply my opinion that I have gotten from my own walk with Him. 

We can throw scripture at whatever dispute or debate, quote till we turn blue in the face, but I believe what should be done is the person should actually ASK God "God, what do you think, am I way off on this?"  Instead of trying to "crack the code" through scripture.  I've noticed that by doing that, some individuals tend to (unintentionally I'm sure) ignore God and try to figure it out on their own. 

Beware, for all is good as it is created by God, but it can also be used for evil (due to manipulation by Lucifer).  Everything has both a good side that promotes God's "principles" if you will and it also has a bad side.  (anything that causes man to go against man or go against what God would probably command someone to do).  To me, the Bible is no different...that is why it is IMPERATIVE that the personal relationship comes first.  Who better to know what is black and what is white than the one who made the statement?  We will all have different viewpoints on everything...but in dealing with differences of all types, what is most important is that we observe God's command "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"....despite the differences.  I can go on forever, but nevertheless...you've made some very good points.  I welcome anyone reading this to e-mail me if you agree or disagree.  I won't guarantee that I will agree, but I will definately listen to your side.

 

Fri, Jun 26 2009 - 3:23 PM EDT

Name: "Chris"

It's Chris again, (sorry, I told you I could go on forever).

I personally am leaning toward post-trib as well.  I can't explain why I feel that way (no scriptures, sorry)...I just feel that way after speaking with God on my own.  But one other thing we must all remember...regardless of "pre" or "post", we must live as if it will happen tomorrow.  We should not concern ourselves with "when" and "where", rather "I know it will happen eventually, so I'm going to ensure I focus on what's truly important".

Just my extra two and a half cents :)  faceurdestiny@yahoo.com if anyone wants to e-mail me with their two cents as well.  (forgot to put it in the original post) 

 

Sun, Dec 27 2009 - 5:02 PM EST

Name: "Kari"

Hi. I have grown up with the Baptist doctrine, but was just rescently challenged in my belief of Pre-trib. I really didn't know much about it, other than sermons I had listened to, so I decided I should study it for myself. In my research, I came across your page/videos. I want to commend you on your presentation and manner in which you conducted the videos. They were not offensive, smug, or with any superior attitude, but rather, humble, informative, and even a bit commical! What you said really start to make since, however- I am not done studying on my own, for myself (so I will continue in that- but you have been a great help!)
-sister in Christ-

Sun, Jan 3 2010 - 4:04 PM EST

Name: "chris byers"

please contact me with advice. noticed the other night an usher at my church had mason pins on his jacket. what should i do? loved your teaching on the rapture thanks for the scripture refs.  ihave read alot of your stuff about masonry is why im asking. your brother in christ chris byers

Thu, Feb 4 2010 - 12:16 PM EST

Name: "Nancy Mathewes"

Hey Brian:  This message is great, I just don't get the part about the 7 years not being 7 years.  Explain that further.   But I have copied what you have written and have sent it to friends I hope will get it and switch to post-trib from pre-trib.

Also what it this about another ascention of saints at the end of the million years?   Would this not be another rapture?

One other thing we all are going to be judged by Yeshua (Jesus).

Thanks for giving me something to help others to understand they need to get ready spiriuall.  But don't you believe it is a good idea to be prepared with some extra food, clothing and shelter too.   Did not the Israelites take their animals, clothing and shelter (tents) with them?

 

Thu, Feb 4 2010 - 1:11 PM EST

Name: "Brian OConnell"

Hello Nancy,
 
Thank you for your post on my blog.
 
7 year tribulation
I have a web page dealing with the 7 year tribulation.  http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id234.htm
 
Simply put, Daniel 9:27 is the only place in the Bible where the 7 years is mentioned. However, the Bible scholars (Up until the pre-trib doctrine was introduced) agree that this prophecy was a fulfilled prophecy & was completed entirely almost 2,000 years ago. Recent pre-trib teachers of the past century or two, found this old prophecy & tried to use it to build a 7 year tribulation theory. This 7 year tribulation is not found anywhere in the New Testament scriptures.
 
The Second Rapture
No, there is not a second rapture. However, there IS a SECOND RESURRECTION! 

Rev 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (First Resurrection); and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (second resurrection)

 
The FIRST Resurrection takes place at the same day as the RAPTURE! Those whom have been part of this First RESURRECTION / RAPTURE have already been judged & have inherited eternal life. After the 1,000 years, the rest of the dead are raised in the SECOND RESURRECTION. They are NOT raptured. They will be judged at the White Throne Judgment.
 
A little more on this topic for clarification.... During the 1,000 year reign of Christ & the saints who were part of the FIRST RESURRECTION, there will be a new generation of people who will be born & live during this time. Some of them will be righteous, others will be wicked. At the White Throne Judgment, they too will be judged & those whom were righteous will have their name written in the book of life (see Rev chapter 20) 
 
The scripture does not say anything about people of this second resurrection being "raptured", only that they will be raised from the dead & will be judged.
 
I hope this helps!
 
IN Christ Jesus our Lord,
Brian

Sun, Feb 14 2010 - 7:09 PM EST

Name: "Craig Calef, Vernon Ct."
Home Page: http://none

http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/blog/   Brian Tripod, CrossBearer

 

Do the Jews have their own destiny? Yes.

Will the Jews convert to Christianity? Yes, most of them.

Are there several raptures, which rescue several different groups of people? Yes.

Is the “Last Trump” for Christians or for Gentile converts in the Tribulation? It is for all converts.

Are there three basic spiritual groups of people in the world? Yes: Jewish, Christian, and Gentile.

Does God deal with each of them differently? Yes.

Is there a definite timetable for each found in Scripture? Yes, but you have to find it.

 

If you miss the first Rapture opportunity then God has something serious against you, and you are a nominal Christian not worthy to be called a Christian. Your name is not permanently written in the Book of Life (Rev 3:5) and therefore you must pass through the Great Tribulation with Antichrist and Satan for further testing of your faith. Isn’t that the message of Revelation 3, letters to the churches? God gives them a little more time to repent. Most of them probably will go through the Great Tribulation (Rev 2:22). They must “overcome” even to the point of death if necessary. They must spiritually “wash their robes” Rev 19:7-8, 8:14. Only the faithful believers will be kept from the global “hour of testing,” the wrathful Day of the Lord.

 

In contrast, the Church of Philadelphia was a faithful Christian type (Rev 3:10), and they deserve to be raptured prematurely before the terrible Great Tribulation. The reason Satan and his hosts are cast out of heaven mid-trib is because of the testimony of the faithful arriving in Heaven. Secondly, the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the world and that is how Antichrist is revealed spiritually; and he becomes active.

 

Those who favor a post-trib rapture are the ones who think they are the strongest, most faithful, truest church in the world (like Arnold Murray, a cult leader in Arkansas). They are the ones who will fight and defeat Antichrist, so they say.

 

Everyone “left behind” at the first rapture/resurrection (mid-trib) is not automatically going to hell because the rest of the Trib will determine that. For the Jew, Matthew 24 is speaking to them. Gentile Paul is speaking to Christians in the Trib. Matthew wrote to Jews and the words do not apply (prophetically) directly to Christians then or now.

 

Believers do not need to pass through the Great Tribulation, but the unbelievers of the world do.

How about you? In what group do you belong? As you can see from the Trib Chart [not sent], the basic three groups of people in the world fall into basically three destinies. To find the chronologies in Scripture requires some digging, but it can be found, and all the pieces of the puzzle come together quite well.

Mon, Feb 15 2010 - 2:34 PM EST

Name: "Brian OConnell"
Home Page: http://www.crossbearer.net

Craig, thank you for your opinions! Unfortunately, that is what many of your points are, just your opinion based on a doctrine that was taught, yet not supported by the word of God.

Mat 24:29-31  Immediately after the tribulation of those days ...

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 

Mon, Feb 15 2010 - 3:58 PM EST

Name: crossbearer-brian
Home Page: http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com

Do the Jews have their own destiny? Yes.

 

Response: That is your opinion.

Rom 10:11-12  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

For there is no difference between the JEW and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

Will the Jews convert to Christianity? Yes, most of them.

 

Response: No disagreement here. Most of them? Although I could wish this was true, no one really knows how many Jews will convert!

 

Are there several raptures, which rescue several different groups of people? Yes.

 

Response: That is your opinion. Although here are two resurrections, one for the righteous & the second for the wicked, I can only find one rapture of the Christian Saints throughout scripture!

 

Is the “Last Trump” for Christians or for Gentile converts in the Tribulation? It is for all converts.

 

Response: Are Christians a different group of people than the "Gentile Converts"? A Christian IS a CONVERT, Jew or Gentile! Period! The Last Trump is the rapture & resurrection for every "CONVERT" on THE day of the ONLY rapture & resurrection of the righteous. This is the Day Jesus returns!

 

Are there three basic spiritual groups of people in the world? Yes: Jewish, Christian, and Gentile.

 

Response: I only know of TWO spiritual groups; the saved & the unsaved! If you would like scriptural support on this let me know!

 

Does God deal with each of them differently? Yes.

 

Response: The saved go to be with Jesus & inherit eternal life, the unsaved will perish! Your preaching another gospel if you say otherwise!

 

Is there a definite timetable for each found in Scripture? Yes, but you have to find it.

 

Response: Timetable? The only timetable is the time it takes for the wicked (Jew & Gentile) to repent & be saved (converted) before Jesus returns. This timetable ends when Christ returns.

 

If you miss the first Rapture opportunity then God has something serious against you, and you are a nominal Christian not worthy to be called a Christian.

 

Response: These “nominal” Christians will NEVER have a second chance.

Mat 25:11-12  Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm (nominal yes?), and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

 

Your name is not permanently written in the Book of Life (Rev 3:5) and therefore you must pass through the Great Tribulation with Antichrist and Satan for further testing of your faith.

 

Response: Where does the scripture say those whom have their names blotted out of the Book of Life get “further testing” & can have their names written AGAIN in the book of life?

Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

 

Isn’t that the message of Revelation 3, letters to the churches? God gives them a little more time to repent. Most of them probably will go through the Great Tribulation (Rev 2:22). They must “overcome” even to the point of death if necessary.

 

Response: Although there are many truths that hold true for the churches today shown in these letters to the 7 churches, those letters to the seven churches were, in fact, written to those 7 churches 2,000 years ago. Every historian knows of the GREAT Tribulation the saints endured in the early years of the Christian church. Every mention of the words “Great Tribulation” does not necessarily mean “THE” great tribulation of the last days!

 

They must spiritually “wash their robes” Rev 19:7-8, 8:14. Only the faithful believers will be kept from the global “hour of testing,” the wrathful Day of the Lord.

 

Response: The faithful believers will be raptured in Rev. 14:14-16! The WRATH of God BEGINS in Rev. 14:17-20 & into the next few chapters. NO ONE repents during the Wrath of God. Rev. 16:9,11,21.

 

In contrast, the Church of Philadelphia was a faithful Christian type (Rev 3:10), and they deserve to be raptured prematurely before the terrible Great Tribulation.

 

Response: The term “Keeping them from the hour of Temptation” does not say they will be raptured! That is an assumption! The Greek word for  “Keep” means to “Watch, Guard, preserve!”

 

 

The reason Satan and his hosts are cast out of heaven mid-trib is because of the testimony of the faithful arriving in Heaven. Secondly, the Holy Spirit is withdrawn from the world and that is how Antichrist is revealed spiritually; and he becomes active.

 

Response: Rev. 12 is a history lesson of past events. Satan WAS cast out of heaven many years ago:

Luk 10:18  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isa 14:12  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground,

 

Those who favor a post-trib rapture are the ones who think they are the strongest, most faithful, truest church in the world (like Arnold Murray, a cult leader in Arkansas). They are the ones who will fight and defeat Antichrist.

 

Response: I like how pre-tribbers liken the post-tribbers to a cult leader. Can’t we, as brothers in Christ, simply reason together in search for the truth?

 

Everyone “left behind” at the first rapture/resurrection (mid-trib) is not automatically going to hell because the rest of the Trib will determine that. For the Jew, Matthew 24 is speaking to them. Gentile Paul is speaking to Christians in the Trib. Matthew wrote to Jews and the words do not apply (prophetically) directly to Christians then or now.

 

Response: I learned something new! I thought Matthew was written to the Christians! AND Post-tribbers are likened to a cult leader?

In Truth, I see Jesus speaking directly to his disciples, & to you & me in these last chapters of Matthew!

Mat 24:1-2  … his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

And Jesus said unto them, …. verily I say unto you

Mat 24:33-34  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

I Simply cannot find anywhere in the book of Matthew where it tells me that it was written to the Jews & not to the Christians.

 

 

Believers do not need to pass through the Great Tribulation, but the unbelievers of the world do.

 

Response: If you are BOLD for Christ, you won’t have to pass through very much of the Great Trib, because you will be put to death for your faith. However, to give you opportunity, I would be convinced of the Pre-trib rapture if you can show me just one scripture that clearly says “BEFORE the tribulation of those days, the Christian church will be raptured!”

 

The ONLY clear passages of scripture pointing to the rapture I can find, say it will be;

 

Visible as lighting, (Matthew 24:27, Luke 17:24)

AFTER the tribulation  (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24, 2 Thess. 2:1-4)

Jesus appears on the clouds of heaven (Matt. 24:30, Mark 13:26, 1 Thess. 4:17, Rev. 1:7 and 14:14-16)  

Every eye will see Him (Matt. 24:30,  Mark 13:26, Luke 17:30, Rev. 1:7)

At the sound of a trumpet (Matt. 24:31, 1 Cor. 15:52, 1 Thess. 4:16)

With the voice of an angel  (1 Thess. 4:16, Rev. 14:15)

To gather His elect  (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27,   1 Thess. 4:17, 2 Thess. 2:1,   Rev. 14:16)

Then comes the wrath of God (Rev. 14:17-15:1)

 

At the coming of Christ (Matthew Chapt 24):

 

     (v36-44) as in days of Noah, unexpectedly, Christ will return and one will be taken, the other      is “Left Behind”

 

      (v45-51) the wise servant made ruler and the evil servant gets portion with the hypocrites

 

     (25:1-13)  the 5 wise virgins enter in and the 5 foolish virgins were shut out

 

     (25:14-30) the 2 faithful servants rewarded and the wicked, slothful servant cast into hell

 

     (25:31-46) the blessed sheep rewarded and the cursed goats punished forever.

 

     Those who are “Left Behind,” the foolish, wicked, slothful and hypocrates will be shut out, cast into hell and punished.  There will NOT be a second chance for those “LEFT BEHIND”

 

This pre-tribulation rapture teaching is false giving false hope to those who trust in a second chance after the rapture of the church. Teachers of this doctrine are selling and storing up documentation to reach the lost after the church has “disappeared” for those who are “left behind”.  Come now, Church, arise and preach the truth. If they are left behind, they will be cast into the fire. We need to save them NOW!

 

Sun, May 16 2010 - 11:37 AM EDT

Name: "Carolyn Lovelace"

I have always believed in the pre-trib rapture of the church, but for the past 9 mo. have been in a Bible study of Revelations - and to my surprise I discovered that the Bible simply does not teach it!  Even though the course was taught from a Dispensationalist/Pre-trib position, their "reasoning" often assumed facts not in evidence in the Scriptures, and many assumptions were pure fabrication.  As their "house of cards" began to crumble, more & more women in the class acknowledged that the Bible not only doesn't teach a secret pre-trib rapture, but clearly teaches a post-trib rapture.  Many eyes were opened!  

I found your paper last night on the rapture.  It is obvious you have put a great deal of work and time into it, and I thank you. I look with anticipation to reading your other works.  Thank you for your dedication to holding to the truth of the Scriptures.  The more I study the Bible for myself, the more I abandon things I've been taught by the church.  It frightens me!  Thank you again  

God bless you and prosper your witness,

Carolyn 

Wed, Jun 2 2010 - 11:06 AM EDT

Name: "Brenda Basinger"

I just watched your you-tube on the rapture and wanted to post. For some reason I couldn't. It kept saying error. I just thought I would post it here. If you want to put it on you tube go ahead :

I believed the rapture theory for 40 of my 47 years. I believed it only because that is what was taught from the pulpit. Because even though I believed it I just couldn't find it in scripture but hey, they had to be smarter than me, right? You are correct though. It isn't taught. It is taught that we will be resurrected at the second coming.  Here is more info:
http://www.truthinhistory.org/the-rapture-true-of-false.html

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/rapture.htm

Sat, Feb 19 2011 - 5:37 PM EST

Name: "Barry"

Hi Brian,

 God bless you, your ministry, and your loved ones!

I've been a Posttriber for many years and I have many important Scriptures to share with you and others.

 Your brother in CHRIST,

Barry E. Dlfosse

562-692-4104

SoCal   PST

Sun, Feb 20 2011 - 10:18 AM EST

Name: "Barry E. Delfosse"

Hi Brian and other,

 

I've been a Postrib Christian for many years.  The Holy Scriptures run deep with clear, repeated, and resounding decalrations of the Posttrib gathering of God's people.

One classic book was written by Alexender Reese, and the text can be found at this weblink:

 

http://www.theologue.org/ApproachingAdvent1-Reese.htm

 

God bless you and all your loved ones.

Your brother in Christ.

Barry E. Delfosse

P.S.-- Our Pretrib brothers are in the dark when it comes to this Pre/Post issue, we need to help enlighten them.

Sun, Feb 20 2011 - 11:21 AM EST

Name: "Barry Delfosse"
Home Page: http://posttribberblog.blogspot.com/

Hi again,

This is my Posttrib Blog.  I don't know much about how to keep a good Blog and I sure could use some help if anyone can has a big heart for ministry.

I just plastered a few rough drafts of chapters of the Posttrib book I've been working on for some time.

http://posttribberblog.blogspot.com/

 

Sincerely,

Your brother in Christ.

Barry E. Delfosse

562-692-4104 PST

Southern California

Mon, Apr 4 2011 - 9:14 PM EDT

Name: "gary"

The Lord has me studying pre/ post trib. I have essentially arrived at post by studying the Word. I did not see where your You tube comments referenced Rev 20:4 - 6.

Please help : It says that those who did not receive the mark of the beast or were beheaded for the Word will be resurrected [ raptured? ] first. Obviously, if they did not accept the mark, they went thru tribulation. Since this is the First rsurrection, there cannot be one that occurs pre trib, otherwise that would be first. the second resurrection is for all other saints who did not suffer thru afforementioned trials. the first group reign with Christ on earth 1000 years. The second do not. Agree? Disagree? Help me where i am missing something here. I am happy to receive [ correct] correction.

i am perplexed about Christ coming like a thief in the night. if pretrib, that makes sense, if post, most Christians will be ready 3 1/2 years after the two prophets ? If post trib, i have a hard time with that one. Agree? Disagree?

if i spread pre trib and i am wrong, people will not be prepared to reject the mark of the beast. People need to understand that to reject the mark will likely mean starvation [ no money, no food ] for themselves, their kids, their grandkids, and it will also mean eternal Glory.  we will need to be strong, and be able to read the times correctly.

if i spread post trib, and i am wrong, some may not be prepared for the coming of the Lord.

we will be held accountable as teachers for spreading the wrong message.

We all need the Truth. It is very important. Lord Jesus, show us your truth, and help us to be able to convince those of the truth, so that we will be prepared for what is coming. Open our eyes so that we may see.

God bless you !

Gary

Tue, Apr 5 2011 - 2:21 PM EDT

Name: crossbearer-brian
Home Page: http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com

GARY,

THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST. I HAVE RESPONDED TO YOUR QUESTIONS BELOW.

GOD BLESS,

BRIAN O’CONNELL

 

The Lord has me studying pre/ post trib. I have essentially arrived at post by studying the Word. I did not see where your You tube comments referenced Rev 20:4 - 6.

I COVER REV 20:4-6 IN DETAIL ON MY WEB PAGE.    http://crossbearer-brian.tripod.com/id59.htm

Please help : It says that those who did not receive the mark of the beast or were beheaded for the Word will be resurrected [ raptured? ] first. Obviously, if they did not accept the mark, they went thru tribulation. Since this is the First rsurrection, there cannot be one that occurs pre trib, otherwise that would be first. the second resurrection is for all other saints who did not suffer thru afforementioned trials. the first group reign with Christ on earth 1000 years. The second do not. Agree? Disagree? Help me where i am missing something here. I am happy to receive [ correct] correction.

AGREED. YOU ARE COMPLETELY CORRECT. THE FIRST RESURRECTION INCLUDES THOSE WHOM HAVE REFUSED TO TAKE THE MARK DURING THE TRIBULATION & THESE WILL REIGN WITH CHRIST. THIS NULLIFIES THE IDEA THAT THERE WILL BE A PRE-TRIB RAPTURE AS YOU NOTED.

I MIGHT INCLUDE THAT THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD AND THE RAPTURE OF THE LIVING TAKE PLACE THE SAME DAY  1 THESS 4:16-17.

i am perplexed about Christ coming like a thief in the night. if pretrib, that makes sense, if post, most Christians will be ready 3 1/2 years after the two prophets ? If post trib, i have a har d time with that one. Agree? Disagree?

Mat 24:42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mat 24:43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Mat 24:44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh

A COMPLETE REVIEW OF THE TEXT TELLS US THAT WE ARE TO BE READY AT ALL TIMES. IT DOES NOT SAY WE WILL NOT KNOW THE TIME IS NEAR! CONTRARIWISE, JESUS SAID WE WILL KNOW WHEN THE TIME IS NEAR. HOWEVER, NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY OR HOUR!

Mat 24:33  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

JESUS IS TELLING US THAT WE WILL KNOW WHEN THE TIME IS NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOOR (OR GATE) HOWEVER, NO ONE KNOWS THE DAY AND HOUR.

 

if i spread pre trib and i am wrong, people will not be prepared to reject the mark of the beast. People need to understand that to reject the mark will likely mean starvation [ no money, no food ] for themselves, their kids, their grandkids, and it will also mean eternal Glory.  we will need to be strong, and be able to read the times correctly.

AGREED! IF PRE-TRIB IS WRONG AND WE LIVE TO GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION, WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THOSE WHOM HAVE TRUSTED THEIR PASTORS TEACHING THAT THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN RAPTURED BY NOW. 2 THESS CHAPTER 2 SAYS MANY CHRISTIANS WILL LEAVE THE FAITH BEFORE CHRIST RETURNS….. MIGHT THESE BE THE DECEIVED CHRISTIANS WHO WERE HOPING TO BE CAUGHT UP TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION BUT NOW HAVE TO ENDURE PERSECUTION FOR THE SAKE OF CHRIST?

if i spread post trib, and i am wrong, some may not be prepared for the coming of the Lord.

NEITHER PRE-TRIB NOR POST-TRIB DOCTRINE SAVES ANYONE. DOES THE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE HAVE MORE EFFECT IN SAVING PEOPLE THAN THE FACT THAT, IF THEY DIE, THEY WILL BURN IN A DEVILS HELL?

WE ARE NOT CALLED TO PREACH PRE-TRIB NOR POST-TRIB TO SAVE SOULS. WE ARE TO PREACH REPENTANCE & SALVATION THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. IF SOMEONE IS NOT READY FOR JESUS, THEN HE IS NOT SAVED & HAS NOT YET REPENTED OF HIS SINS. THE PRE-TRIB DOCTRINE DOESN'T SAVE PEOPLE! THE FEAR OF HELL & THE HOPE FOR ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH CHRIST SAVES SOULS.

we will be held accountable as teachers for spreading the wrong message.

We all need the Truth. It is very important. Lord Jesus, show us your truth, and help us to be able to convince those of the truth, so that we will be prepared for what is coming. Open our eyes so that we may see.

God bless you !

Gary

 

Thu, Jul 7 2011 - 12:22 AM EDT

Name: "Faith Guy"

Brother Brian,

I stumbled onto your web site 2 years ago when I saw your video exposing the pre-trib rapture hoax. Great site! Keep up the great work that our Lord Jesus Christ has called you and your ministry to do!

As for the rapture - to be frank, this is one of those doctrines where no matter how convincing a case one side makes(whether pre or post trib), the discussion and debates just end up going on and on 6 months or so later with no end in site. Like said above, I am not pre-trib, but it's NOT just the Charles Stanleys, John MacArthurs, Hal Lindseys, and Tim LaHaye's that are promoting this doctrine(there are a couple of small KJV-only ministries I follow that are pre-trib), so it's not like the New World Order honchos are the ones throwing this out.

Anyhow, pt being that time is really running short now, and ultimately very, very soon, we will ALL FIND OUT what is REALLY of God. Assuming we're still here when the Antichrist emerges, then Praise the Lord that there will be 3.5(or 7) more years left until Christ returns for his church. But IF we do get raptured? Then obviously Praise the Lord!

Again, at the stage right now, I think it would be best to just wait to see which is of God, and which isn't.

Thu, Jul 7 2011 - 2:30 PM EDT

Name: "Faith Guy"

Brother Brian,

One more thing - are you familiar with NASA's Project Blue Beam? It was first broken by a Canadian reporter in the 1980's, and the whole purpose of this agenda is to try to discredit Christiniaty and form a One World Religion in the end times(ie-making movies like "Jurassic Park" that's pro-evolution, and "let's unite together for the common good" movies like "Independence Day", using HAARP to create earthquakes in various places and then supposedly make these *ancient* discoveries).

Ultimately, when the time comes they will perform a "Night of the 1000 stars"(or whatever it's called) with holograms of leaders of all the religions to usher in the OWG antichrist, and will also FAKE a rapture deception to boot.(ie-apparently the fake rapture will be "alien" spaceships nabbing people)

When Paul preached about the strong delusion in 2nd The 2, he couldn't have stressed it more. This passage itself proves that the rapture of the church, if there's one, can't happen BEFORE the antichrist makes his appearance.

Thu, Jul 7 2011 - 5:12 PM EDT

Name: "Faith Guy"

NASA's Project Bleam Blue and the Fake Rapture

http://rewardsinheaven.blogspot.com/

Universal Supernatural Manifestations via Electronics

 

 

The fourth step concerns the universal supernatural manifestation with electronic means. It contains three different orientations.

One is to make mankind believe that an alien (off-world) invasion is about to occur at every major city on earth in order to provoke each major nation to use its nuclear weapons in order to strike back. This way, the United Nations Court will require that all those nations which launched nuclear weapons to disarm when the invasion is shown to have been false. And how will the United Nations know that the invasion was false? They will have staged it, of course.

The second is to make the Christians believe that the rapture is going to occur with the supposed divine intervention of an alien (off-world) civilization coming to rescue earthlings from a savage and merciless demon. Its goal will be to dispose of all significant opposition to the implementation of the New World Order in one major stroke, actually within hours of the beginning of the sky show!

Fri, Jul 8 2011 - 1:39 AM EDT

Name: "Faith Guy"

Brother Bryan,

I know I'm clogging up this particular thread with questions today, but this one popped up in my head just now.

Do you think the nation of Israel and the Jews will play a role in the great tribulation? Do you think the re-birth of this nation in 1948 is a key signal that the countdown clock starting clicking?

 

Sat, Jul 9 2011 - 3:02 AM EDT

Name: "Michael"

Dear Mr Crossberer,

 

     Just wanted to say you rock! Your inturpation of Bible Prophecy is exactley what  I belive, God Bless You!

 

Love and Prayers,

 

Michael Murphy

Mon, Aug 15 2011 - 7:19 PM EDT

Name: "Minster Mark Zimmerman"
Home Page: http://GodsRhema.com

Dear: Brother Brian,

 

I found your site awhile ago looking for some info on Once Saved, Always Saved, and have been greatly blessed by the insight the Lord has Given you on your teachings. They have been conformations to me of the guidance of the Holy Spirit’s teaching. You made a statement about Rev.14  “I am not alone in believing  . . . ” I have felt alone at times when the revelation the  Holy Spirit gives goes contrary to the main stream teachings. But thanks to the lord for leading me to your site and confirming His word. I am reminded of Paul going to Jerusalem to see the apostles in Galatians 2:2b “ . . . lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

 

I used to be pretrib until about 5 years ago when I was putting together an in depth Bible Study on the book of Revelations and the timing of events. Now I am a Posttrib. I would like to sharer a little with you and your reads about the timing of events in light of the Feast of the Lord.

 

When Jesus came 2000 years ago He fulfilled the Feast of Passover, Unleaved Bread and First Fruits. Jesus fulfilled them on the exact day and hour. He died on Passover at 3pm, at the time the Passover lamb was slain and was berried before sunset to start the Feast of Unleaved Bread and rose on Sunday morning, the time of First Fruits. In the same way He is going to fulfill the last three Feasts on their day and hour.

 

The two Witnesses enter Jerusalem and prophesy for 1260 day. When they finish their testimony the Antichrist kills them. 3½ days later on the 1st day of the seventh month, the feast of blowing of trumpets, the seventh and last trumpet sounds, and the dead in Christ are resurrected. It is the rapture; we are caught up together to heaven, to our chambers in heaven. God pores out His wrath, then on the 10th day, the feast of Atonement, heaven opens and Jesus and the saints’ return, in the battle of Armageddon. On the 15th day, the feast of tabernacles, the feast ends on the 22nd day that is the 1290 day from the abomination, fulfilling Dan 12:11.

 

This is a quick overview of the timing of events for a fuller look at the sequence of events and charts you can go to my site GodsRhem.com.

 

 

Thanks and God bless you, your ministry,

Sun, Feb 19 2012 - 2:53 PM EST

Name: "Charles Baker"

I agree with the Bible which clearly teaches  Post Tribulation Pre Wrath

Tue, Mar 6 2012 - 1:00 AM EST

Name: "Craig Nunn"

I just Rev. 7 starting at verse 9 again with fresh eyes. I am convinced now that we will not see a pretrib rapture. I believe post trib teaching should be a top priority for teachers.

Sun, Apr 15 2012 - 7:40 PM EDT

Name: "Scott Bayard"

Thank you many times for disclosing the truth of Yeshua's substantial and spiritual return to this world!  Though I both realize and acknowledge that the pretribism preaching does not perfectly negate one's capacity to teach the genuine doctrine of salvation, sadly it cannot additionally contribute to it either!  For instance, if one will not assume the proper perspective of what is yet to be prophetically, how can a reasonable person take seriously the present doctrine of salvation presently?  In that context, see can I the priviledge that Satan would presume that he would assume by subtracting humanity's confidence in His disclosure! 

Sun, Apr 15 2012 - 8:08 PM EDT

Name: "Scott Bayard"

I know well that perspective, Kari; though I was raised to be but receptive to everything that the big names in theology told me, when I reached my teenage years, I decided to do all my own research; after studying Buddhism, Islam, and even witchcraft, I concluded that the Book's reality is the far most elivated!  Afterwards, I submited my will to Yah-weh through Yeshua.  In accordance with the way, have I been reasonably compelled to cast pre-trib rapture from me as far as I can.  Shalom!    

Wed, May 2 2012 - 8:43 AM EDT

Name: "terri"

Hi Brian,

Everyday for the last 3mons. I seek to find peace from the scriptures bc for seventeen yrs. I have relied on preachers. That has all changed.  I have been attending Church Of Christ for over 10yrs. and have felt like I am in solatary confinement.  I stopped going and now I read on my own but I am still haunted by the teachings.....and fine it difficult to worship unless I am at home......and still I feel wrong.

Plz. contact me by email: terriscott56@gmail.com

I hope that we can talk and share scripture...I pray for guidance and a real human saved Christian to talk to as I respect the journey you are on!......I so envey your surrender and life style.

I grew up in Tampa, Inverness and have lived in Lakeland since 1987.

I hope this message gets to you quickly!

In Christs Love!

 

  

 

Wed, May 23 2012 - 11:19 PM EDT

Name: "Ernie"

"The following summary is given without scripture references to keep it simple"

 

This is the first sentance taken from your page.. Really brother. without scripture?

Wed, Oct 17 2012 - 7:56 PM EDT

Name: "Harold"

it is funny how the LORD  teaches sometimes, i am at this time a pre trib believer, but i asked God show me when i was rong and keep me open minded enough to change if i was.Convincing argument,but i still studying the matter thanks for the opening statement,we are brothers in Christ,i believe we the church spend too much time arguing,and not enough time in the word keep up the good work

Tue, Nov 27 2012 - 5:26 PM EST

Name: "Steve"

First I want to say thanks for your dedication to the Lord, no matter how one views the rapture I think we all can agree it is approaching fast.

Now to my comment or questions if you will.

If we are to beleive in the post trib rapture vs pretrib, then we must assume that the seven seals and the trumpets happen at the same time. Why do I say this?  Because in Rev. 7 between the 6th and 7th Seal we see a couple of things happen. 1. 144,000 are sealed with the mark of God on their foreheads. But we also see what appears to me to be a rapture. Begining in verse 9 we see "a multitude, which no man could count" show up in heaven. These are discribed in verse 14 as "those who came out of the great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lanb." 

These are Christians, not doubt about it. They didn't come through the Tribulation, they came out of it. Again this is between the 6th and the 7th Seals. Once the 7th Seal is opened there is silence in heaven for about the space of 1/2 hour verse 8:1. After this begins the 7 trumpets, the 3 woe's by reason of the voices of the trumpets of the three angels, which are yet to sound.

So if the trumpets are yet to sound but there is a large multitude in heaven who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, how can the rapture happen at the end of the 7th trumpet?

Not only are the seven trumpets yet to sound but the 7 plagues are yet to come. So, even if the last trumpet mentioned in all of the NT scripture refers to the 7th trumpet of Revelation, it would appear that the church is out of here before the GREAT Tributlation begins.

Now in Revelation 15 we see another group show up in Heaven before the plagues begin. Verse 2-3, these are those who had gotten victory over the beast, and over the image of the beast,and over the mark and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having harps of God. and they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb",. Could it be that these are Jews who converted during the tribulation, a second rapture toward the end of the tribulation? (the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb)

It is after this that the plaques play out. 

My last comment or question if you will.

Could it be since Jesus fullfilled the first of the 4 spring feasts, his coming will fulfill the fall feasts?

If so the feast of trumpets is the feast that makes biblical sense to be the last trumpet referred to here. My understanding is that during the feast of trumpets a trumpet was sounded many times and at the sound of the last trumpet the harvesters were to come out of the field and stop the harvest to go worship.

When you do an indepth study of the feasts this appears to make alot of sense.

Thanks for reading any reply would be wonderful.  

 

Wed, Nov 28 2012 - 2:22 PM EST

Name: "Steve"

I forgot to mention Revelation 20:4 where we see another group of people show up in heaven.

 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These obviously went through the tribulation and held fast to Christ.

So we now see 3 groups show up in heaven.

1. A multitude so large no one can count, it even tells who they are. They are those who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.

So this multitude of Christians that came out of the great tribulation, show up in heaven before the 1st of the seven trumpets even sounds no at the 7th or the last trumpet.

2. Latter we see those who sing the song om Moses and the song of the Lamb. Jews converted to Christians during the tributlation?

3. Those who died during the tribulation by beheading.

In reviewing the 7 trumpets, I can't find any trumpet blast that has any redemptive features to it. I see all of them have judgments on those who remain upon the earth during the tribulation. (Gods wrath on the earth) 

1 Thess 5:9  For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

 Rev 3:10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Why do post-tribs automatically associate the trumpet that sounds at the rapture with the 7th trumpet of Revelation? These are 7 seperate trumpets with no specific names.

 The trumpet of the rapture is specific, it it the trumpet of God 

1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

What is the trumpet of God?

 Gods voice?

Exo 19:16-19 

Heb 12:18-19

Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. 

Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 

Notice that the voice (trumpet)in the Revelation 4:1 & 11:12  said come up here.
 
Could the trumpet of the rapture be God saying , come up here? 

1 Cor 15:52? 

 I The 4:16 ?

Finally, in Rev 19 The church is seen returning with Christ at His coming at Armageddon. If the church is raptured when Christ returns to fight this battle. If we are to believe this then there is no time allowance for celebration or reunion between the church and the Lord, but it is changed into their glorious bodies while in route to the worst war in history.

 

 

 

 

Wed, Nov 28 2012 - 5:37 PM EST

Name: "Steve"

Scott,

I agree that some people just can't seem to grasp God's plan of salvation. However, I don't think it has anything to do with their ability to teach the end-times ,(post-trib,mid-trib etc.) correctly.

I belong to a christian church which is a sister church to the local church of Christ,(not the noninstrumental ones). Many are mixed up about the church of Christ and call it a cult. I guess if a cult is any church that teaches anything other then what you do, (by you I mean other churches), then every church but the one you attend is a cult.

We just finished a study on revelation at our chruch and I couldn't dis- ageee more the the view of our minister, he is a post-trib. I happen to be a pre-trib as you may tell by my recent post on that topic. 

I don't think that a persons view on the rapture disqualifies them for salvation. However, I believe that persons view on salvation (how is one  saved) can. Why? Because if they have the wrong view then they will teach it wrong and therefore send many to hell by default. They are a false teacher.

Now, many have the view of what is commonly called faith only (nothing is required of me just faith in Jesus). If anything is required of me then it is not free/grace.

Others have the view it is grace by faith in Jesus that saves but we still need to accept this salvation on His terms not ours.

I start with this scripture: Exo 20:3  You shall have no other gods before Me.

This tells me that I can not make up hypo's concerning salvation. example: But what about the person on their death bed or getskilled in a car wreck, how about the person that has never heard, I don't think God would do that etc. 

So, my only choice is to take God at His word. God says He is not the author of confusion 1 Cor 14:33.

If one place God says faith saves us and another it says baptism saves us and yet another says believing and still yet another repentance, then they must all fit together or none of them are true.

So, what does the bible say saves us?

Rom 8:3 God

John 3:16 God's love for us

Eph 2:8 Grace

Matt 1:21 Jesus

2 Cor 5:21 rom. 5:10 Christ's life 

Eph 2:13-16 The cross

Heb 9:13-22 The blood of Christ, which He shed in His death.

Heb 9:13-22 Christ's death 

1 Cor 15:1-5 Christ;s burial

1 Cor 15:17 Christ's ressurection

Acts 16:29-31 Belief

Rom. 8:24 Hope

James 1:21 God's Word

Rom 5:1-2, Luke 7:50 Faith

James 2:5, John 14:15 Our love for God

Rom 6:17-18 Obeidence

Luke 13:3 Repentance

1 John 1:9 Confessing our sin

Luke 12:8 Confessing Jesus

Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, 22:16 Calling on the name of the Lord

1 Cor 6:11 , Rom 8:12-17 The Holy Spirit

1 Cor 15:1-2 Rom 1:16 The gospel

Acts 2:37-38, 1Peter 3:18-22 Col 2:12 Water baptism & the operation of God.

 Phil 2:12 Remaining faithful

James 2:24 Works of faith

So, you as you can see there is not one thing that saves us. Try removing any of the above aspects of salvation and you now change salvation from Gods terms to salvation on your terms. You have broken the 1st of the 10 commandments and created your own God. 

 Some say that a church is a cult because they say that baptism is neccessry for salvation. These same people have just created their own God by taking it away.

These same people claim baptism is a work when Col 2:12 says it is God working in us.

These same people will say that baptism doesnt have anything to do with salvation when  1 Peter 3:21 says it does and goes on to say how it does which matches perfect with Col 2:12.

The church that is called a cult understands that it is not the water or the act of baptism that saves a person but what God is doing to the sinner as promised at that time.

Those who claim baptism is not neccessary claim that the cult is relying on works by being baptized for salvation when there is no discription of baptism being a work in scripture. 

Those same people who say baptism isn't needed will say the theif on the cross wasn't baptized therefore this proves it isn't needed. When asked how they know the theif wasn't baptized they can provide no scripture to prove it. These people have added to scripture which is a big no no. These do not understand that even if the theif was baptized it doesn't make any differance because it is not the baptism we are commanded to do. How do I know this?  Scripture tells us this! Beginning in Acts 18:24 there was a man named Apollos who was eloquent and mighty in scriptures, This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

You see that, he taught alot but he knew and taught only the baptism of John. 

Notice what happens next, Aquila and Priscilla heard him, knowing what he was teaching was no longer correct, they took him aside and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

So had the thief been baptized it would have been the baptism of John and not Christ so it wouldn't have been the baptism commanded of us today.

Need more proof?

This same man Apollos , after learning the truth stopped teaching his false doctrine and began to teach the truth. Acts 19 beginning in verse 1. Appolos found 12 diciples and asked if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. They said they hadn't heard of the Holy Spirit. He then asked them who's baptism the recieved and they said John's. Apollos then taught them correctly and rebaptized them into the name of the Lord Jesus. 

See baptism into the name of the Lord is part of believing and receiving the Holy Spirit.

 Had Apollos continued to teach the baptism of John or said, oh you guys are fine brothers, keep up the good work. Apollos would have been a false teacher. Once you know the truth hold on to it and teach it, don't continue down the wide path to distruction.

Lastly those who call others a cult will say that scripture says that all that is needed is to call on the name of the Lord.

 Peter qoutes from Joel in Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter continues to tell those who are listening about Jesus.  Acts 2:37 says that they were prick in the heart and asked what shall we do?

Peter didn't say I just told you call on the name of the Lord nor did he say just say this paryer and ask Jesus into your heart. No he said, Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How was Paul told to wash away his sin? Acts 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. 

Baptism is associated with calling on the name of the Lord, washing away sin and receiving the Holy Spirit. But why you ask. Because one of the things that saves us is to obey and God has promised us that He will wash away our sins, place the Holy Spirit in us if we will be washed in the blood of the Lamb. Jesus shed His blood in His death, at baptism His death becomes ours. God marks us as His own just the same way He marked those under the old covenant with circumcision.

Col 2:10-14   ol 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 

In all of the things that saves us, people who call those who believe baptism to be a required part of salvation a cult will agree with every thing in the list except baptism. They say you can remove it and still be saved. Thats not what God says. Who then is a cult? those who change and muniplulate God's word to fit their ways or those who teach it as scripture teaches it. 

Who is guilty of have another god? 

You see, if Satan can take take away the way that God chose to impart His Grace on those who love Him, he wins. Don't let him win! 

Please don't get upset with my view just think about it and go deeper into what baptism is all about, there is much more on this topic.

Ask yourelf why no one in all of scripture argued about baptism and why they never waited for the mass baptism or for a relative to be there, they did it the same hour of the same night Acts 16:33, acts 8:36. What did the Jews understand about baptism?

Scripture must, I repeat must work together or nothing is of any use. 

 


 

 

Tue, Dec 4 2012 - 2:49 AM EST

Name: "S. Wesley Mcgranor"
Home Page: http://swesleymcgranor.wordpress.com

Amen! 

Thu, Jan 17 2013 - 1:29 AM EST

Name: "Chris Amico"

Hi Brian, I read your article, Pre-trib vs. post-trib...I'm on your side..I have tried to find info. on The Crossbeare's religion & I keep getting the free masonry web sites..I know that your not a mason, how can I find info. on the Crossbearer's.  I have a son-inlaw that is a Weslyan pastor. I have tried to share my view on rapture in the past..he will not listen to me..I know he is saved, but grounded in Weslean doctrine as far as rapture is concerned. he is pre-trib all the way..I fear for my daughter and my 3 grandchildren who are being taught a false doctrine..please coment..thanks, and God bless you, Chris

Thu, Jan 24 2013 - 2:21 PM EST

Name: "Eric McCaleb"

Thank you for all your hard work on this very important subject.  I am trying to understand and formulate my own opinion on this topic.  I "feel" that post-tribulation is the most scriptually accurate account of end times history.  I am just beginning my end times prophecy research and feel blessed to have found this site.  Again thank you, and may God bless you and your efforts.

Thanks again,

Eric McCaleb

Fri, Jan 25 2013 - 12:45 PM EST

Name: "Keith Speegle"

How does Rev 6:12 tie into post trib rapture?  It clearly shows that the sun and the moon darkened and that occurs as Jesus is coming down in the clouds in Matt 24:29-31 which is after the last trumpet?  6:12 occurs before the trumptets...........Also, everyone hiding themselves seems to go along with the idea that they are aware of there impending doom and shame?

Fri, Jan 25 2013 - 12:46 PM EST

Name: "Keith Speegle"

How does Rev 6:12 tie into post trib rapture?  It clearly shows that the sun and the moon darkened and that occurs as Jesus is coming down in the clouds in Matt 24:29-31 which is after the last trumpet?  6:12 occurs before the trumptets...........Also, everyone hiding themselves seems to go along with the idea that they are aware of there impending doom and shame?

Fri, Jan 25 2013 - 12:53 PM EST

Name: "keith speegle"

Doesnt Rev 6:12 reference itself back to Matt 24:29-31?  Wouldnt this place the sixth seal and the last trumpet together?

Thu, Feb 7 2013 - 5:36 PM EST

Name: "Dennis"
Home Page: http://yahoo

I am a product of pre-trib rapture indoctrination.  (I am 64 y.o.).  I have recently been re-visiting the whole end times teaching and have been especially focused on pre-trib vs. mid and post-trib views.

I have come to a place where I believe the "rapture" will occur after the revelation of the anti-christ and before the opening of the seventh seal, where I feel the wrath actually begins.  For now, I feel that the tribulation precedes the wrath and that the rapture occurs just before the wrath.  Perhaps they overlap?

Anyway, the question is in reference to your statement that you believe the seven plagues will occur in just one day.  How does that fit with Rev. 9:5 where authority is given to extend the Fifth Trumpet plagues for five months?  Thanks!

Fri, May 10 2013 - 3:54 AM EDT

Name: "Jim"

Its great to see some prewrath postings.

What do you think about a secret firstfruits rapture of a small company of  mature believers before the Great Tribulation? This small group would meet the Lord in the air. The Lord is not visible on Earth at this time. The thief in the night is the clearest example for this view.

Thank you for your website.

ps.: Check out the web postings for Leland Earls. There are many free articles on the web that address the prewrath view.

Wed, Aug 21 2013 - 2:05 PM EDT

Name: frankcha
Home Page: http://frankcha.tripod.com

I agree with much of what you wrote. I have spent 17 years writing a 500+ page book on the subject so I know the angles but you miss one.

The pre-tribbers either can't see the truth or don't want to. I have written EVERY big name minister and they all tell me I'm wrong. But here is what the Holy Spirit showed me:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

They CANNOT SEE because they don't belong to God.

 

2.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

They tell people what they want to hear. You waste your time teaching them but you do help those who are hunting for the word of God instead of the word of men. God bless.

 

Tue, Oct 15 2013 - 8:21 PM EDT

Name: "CNC"

Brian - you did a wonderful job by providing biblical proof that the post-trib is the most scriptural based. I at one time was decieved by the pre-trib influence and teachings. I truly believe that most pre-trib proponents have never studied scripture themselves, and have relied on the general most taught view in the church (pre-trib). I was guilty of isogesis rather than exegesis myself. Again, great job for all of the work you have done on this important subject. Just as an end note, I would like to remind all Christians that when discussing the book of Revelation, to remember it is not "Revelation(s)" (Plural). Revelation is the disclosure of Christ only and only Christ alone.God bless, your brother in Christ.

Thu, Apr 24 2014 - 7:55 PM EDT

Name: "James Moody"

                  

Hello! My name is James Moody.

        This blogging thing is new to me. I just finished creating my first website blog, and thought that the best way to get others to comment on it is to comment on other blogs, and this site caught my interest.

        Of all the current rapture theories the post-tribulation rapture theory appears to me to be the closest to being accurate. My theory is also a post-tribulation rapture theory, but mine is a post-great tribulation rapture theory. You see, my Bible prophecy studies reveal to me that the time of great tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15-31will end about one-year before the seven-years called the tribulation ends. That is, the rapture and the beginning of God’s wrath should occur near the end of the sixth-year of those seven-years.

        According to this theory, God’s wrath will likely be confined to the seventh-year of those seven-years. The reason for that one-year is that there are biblical periods of time that will occur during God’s wrath that must be accounted for. They are: (1) Five-months of men being tormented (Revelation 9:5), and (2) the burying of the dead (Ezekiel 39:14), followed by (3) the battle of Armageddon (Ezekiel 39:17-20).

        Therefore, the day of the Lord and the time of Jacob’s trouble will also likely begin near the beginning of the seventh-year. I call this theory “The Pre-Seventh-Year Rapture Theory”. This theory reveals a very different view of those seven-years, including the seals, trumpets and vials. To me when the seals on the book are opened one at a time John is shown vision/previews of events that will be occurring throughout those seven-years, the same visions that Daniel was told to seal-up until the time of the end (Daniel12:4).

        My studies reveal that there will likely be a nuclear war that will account for the events of the first six trumpets and the events of the first three vials. They also allow plenty of time for all the many other prophecies, including persecution of the saints to fit into those seven-years without having to excuse them away.    

       Thank you for allowing me to comment on your site. I pray that my comments have not offended anyone in anyway. May God’s richest blessings be with you always.  

Wed, Jun 25 2014 - 3:26 PM EDT

Name: "Jim Black"

Hello James,

I read your comment on Crossbearer on the day of the Lord beginning in the 7th year of Daniel's 70th week (aka tribulation). There's an interesting verse in Joel that says the day of the Lord will occur in the "valley of decision," which is Armageddon.  Check it out: Joel 3:14,15. Joel also says it happens after the moon turns blood red and the sun darkens (Joel 2:31).  Also. Paul tells us that the DOL will happen AFTER the apostasy and revealing of antichrist (2 Thes. 2:3).  This puts it at least 3 1/2 years into the great tribulation.

 

Blessings,

J. Black 

Sun, Aug 31 2014 - 7:24 PM EDT

Name: "Roanne"

I read your post trib -- wherefore comfort one another with these words!!!!

Tue, Sep 8 2015 - 6:29 PM EDT

Name: "Rob"

Thanks brother....I feel like I am the only one in my circle of influence who actually takes the word at face value concerning the coming of the Lord.....the day of the Lord...and his gathering of the saints...the elect, the children of the kingdom......I have lots to learn...but it seems so clear....how can others misinterpret ....and not the word at face value of the famous pre tribbers....your bang on in my books.....I have not read your site fully but I agree with ya so far...and am reading with anticipation.....it means everything to be prepared for what's coming upong the earth.....thanks brother

 

Tue, Dec 29 2015 - 2:13 PM EST

Name: "normanfamily"
Home Page: http://www.preacherjayk.com

Wow....thank you so much for writing this article!!!! We are from an area where it seems we are the only people that do not believe in the pre-trib. We are full time traveling missionaries or evangelists however you want to refer to us. My husband preaches and sings but has such a problem because no one accepts our beliefs on post tribulation. I told my husband that if we ever run across someone else that believes like us, I would probably join their church and stay with them.

Sat, Mar 5 2016 - 5:06 PM EST

Name: "Blane"

After reading your site, I too believe what you believe. What denomination, in your opinion is the one that is the closest to being Biblically correct?

Thu, Jun 8 2017 - 3:45 AM EDT

Name: "Matthew"

Hello, thanks for your blog.  I have never understood how pre-tribulation doctrine could be supported by the Parable of the Ten Virgins.  There is a general state of sleepiness among the wise and the foolish, but once the midnight cry is heard, there is no time to buy oil and there are no second chances.  There is one return of Christ, and then the door is shut. 

Thu, Jun 8 2017 - 7:56 PM EDT

Name: "Matthew"

Watched a well known preacher "defend" the pre-trib rapture - it rang even less true having read your blog.  Thank you again.  "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free".

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